hello and welcome back to another episode of the cookie jar golf podcast Bruce is joining me today Bruce hard the
devil are you good morning yeah early morning podcast uh a bit of a rarity for us but here we are ready to go it’s been
a few weeks since we’ve been to Royal North Devon um we haven’t been able to find about time yet sit down and chew the cud properly but I thought we’d spend 15-20
minutes talking about the event the course the people the Ambiance and then we’ve got a little
sort of 40-minute discussion with Robert Fowler who’s the club’s archivist who’s uh he’s a really cool guy wrote the
history book on Royal North Devon really enjoyed sitting there and doing a pod with him um before going out yeah yeah so um so
we’ll kind of cut to him but I just kind of wanted to kind of put a brief cover note on this part and and probably a bit
of us chatting about the course Bruce you’ve been down there quite a bit over the last few years is that fair to say
because it was a first time here for me yeah now this year was my third time going down there so I first went down in
2019 um shout out to a friend of the Pod Pierce Parnell who invited uh Harry and I to go
down and basically I think the the last week in August that week that finished
with the bank holiday weekend is a bit of a golfing Bonanza really down at rawn or Devon um so I guess it’s almost like
their annual meeting for for one of a better word where they have a huge amount of competitive golf throughout
the week um yeah they’re not just medals there’s a
bit of you know I think it’s like maybe a scramble or a four ball better ball competition in there as well and they’ve got some handicapped stuff too there’s
some match play as well as straight as as well as straight play but um on the Friday you have the club silver
medal which as far as I’m aware I think that is the oldest Club honors board in
English golf it might even be UK golf but um you know stretching stretching a long
way back there and that’s that’s something that I’ve had the opportunity to play in a couple of times and then on the Saturday you’ve got the scratch
um cashmere cut which is yeah 36 hole scratch metal off the black tees which
they never use apart from that one time of the year yeah yeah they’re in the middle of nowhere aren’t they they’re
they’re they’re pretty unique and then and then yeah on the Sunday um there’s a match between the auction
and Cambridge golf society and uh the club so so yeah Piers was was uh kindly
invited us to go and play in that back in 2019 and flooded it so much we’ve been back a couple of times since
um didn’t go in 2020 because because of the dreaded sea but um it’s just a it’s
just an amazing place and I mean it was your first time there Sam wasn’t it so yeah it’s great so I mean I I really
enjoyed it what I mean look the the conversation with with Robert that we’re going to cut to it a bit covers a load
of the history stuff and you know you talk about the honors boards there when you see Horace Hutchinson with about
eight or nine ditto marks below him yeah on year where he’s just won the same thing
um and obviously you see things like Taylor’s locker and the whole history around that is the kind of first English
Golf Club it’s pretty amazing to see what a great job they’ve done in preserving it all really
um but one thing that going into it if I’m being brutally honest is you know it’s going to be a Marmite course
some people absolutely love it and others absolutely hate it
I’m just being really honest yeah where do you sort of stand on that on that spectrum because I mean I really I
really love the place yeah okay well I really love the place I I can see I suppose some of this issue is sometimes
the the naive visiting golfer might go into it expecting um you know raw Birkdale huge towering
dunes and kind of dramatic golf holes you don’t really have that much of it you’ve got some spectacular goal poles
don’t get me wrong and some of the architecture I think particularly on those sort of outward 10 are really
really strong there’s some really really good golf holes there but you know it’s a really flat piece of
land so when you get out the car you look at it and go right okay there’s 18 holes out there out there because all
you can see is one and 18 and then it all just sort of disappears into the Horizon doesn’t it yeah yeah
I think it’s um I I think it’s just great fun because
you know he’s the oldest course in England really it’s the Cradle of English Golf and
um yeah as you say when you when you go there you can see one and 18 and as you work your way out it’s actually very
very playable and extremely generous off the tee I think the 13th hole might be
the widest Fairway in goal for the widest sort of landing area in golf is other than a couple of groceries
everywhere you can pretty uh pretty much go anywhere but um you know when the wind blows down there
and uh you know it gets a little bit firmer um the greens start to get a bit shiny I
think personally it’s a it’s a bloody difficult test of golf and I think one of the things that keeps you coming back
aside from how brilliant and welcoming the club is which is something that we’ll get on to in a moment and the
course is is great fun as well there’s almost like this sort of sadistic Obsession I have with the ability that
you know with the fact that I’ve not I didn’t feel like I’ve played or scored all that well around there in the three years I’ve been going and yet it just
sort of seemed like it should be a course that you should be able to put a bit of a score together doesn’t it and I
think that’s the feeling like I drove away from it thinking I really want to get back down there again because I feel like I could play it differently so
therefore you know that isn’t you know I hit the ball okay but if I’d have made different decisions out there I would
have played a lot better in the event and I think that’s the essence of a really good course you touched on 13. that’s actually one of the standout
holes for me which is this ridiculously wide par five that kind of it gradually
climbs it’s not like a big uphill or anything is it but it sort of gradually Works its way back slightly uphill
um it’s not particularly long I think it’s like 484 90 or something off the whites it’s like a sort of a mid-length
par five and you could take a run at it with the driver couldn’t you like it really you know you could hit it pretty
much anywhere but then the the complexity around the green and where
you put your second shot in relation to where the pin is on that green is everything absolutely
yeah yeah described it beautifully there it’s you know it’s a short path Ivory I think by today’s standards and if you
get a win a bit of win behind or even if you leave it in the sort of semi-rust you know you can get a bit of a flyer
and Chase someone up there um but the green is so severely tilted from
front to back and almost left to right and it’s just so sharp like the runoff
here if people talk about upturned sources but this is It’s mental isn’t it yeah yeah this is the steepest Source
I’ve ever seen it’s not particularly high but there’s like I would say six or seven six feet of elevation maybe yeah
maybe five or six feet of elevation but it’s probably at about 70 degree angle isn’t it yeah yeah and if that pins over
on the right hand side and you you know you miss it it’s it’s it’s it’s fine
margins because if you miss it just slightly on the right one then you just put up the slope you’re kind of at the bottom of the tear that that’s fine if
you’re further right so you’re 10 20 yards right of the pin then you are really in a difficult spot yeah if
you’re left of the if you’re left of the green when the pin’s over on the right I mean there’s some rushes over there that
if you get an unfortunate bounce with your approach shot you could be kind of pretty close pretty close to those or
even find yourself in one of those which is obviously not a good spot to be um and even if you do have a shot to the
Green from the left there’s just like such a it’s like low chance you’ll be able to keep it on the
green because it’s kind of running away from you so um yeah I mean I think over the years in
a cashmere cut many people have come undone around that green complex even
though you’re looking you think this should be a pretty straightforward birdie um it’s nothing it’s just not even close
to that you touched on the rushes there be remiss to not talk about the course and not talk about those rushes I’ve
never seen that vegetation anywhere they’re like they’re not like it’s not
like sort of heavy sort of thick rushes this stuff is like Barbed Wire yeah
isn’t it it’s so insanely heavy if your ball goes anywhere near it there is no
way you can play out of it it’s essentially it might as well be a localized water hazard really except you get it off the tee you’re gonna have to
go back you know it’s mental I think Harry was saying one year someone put their hand into the rushes and then
got their finger sort of stuck into one of the sharp Blades of the rush
in their finger like three days later it got infected and then yeah it’s it’s seriously penal stuff out of an
apocryphal story that is just the truth yeah yeah yeah you know there are plenty
of people out there I’d count myself one of them who almost just have an obsession with trying to find a golf ball
um and yeah you know that’s probably a deterrent if if you are a little bit too
eager and you see a ball in a rush or you wanted to go fishing for for a ball in if you think it’s landed in a
particular rush out there and yeah you could you could really come a crop if you were if you managed to skewer your
finger on one um but they are pretty unique I can’t think of yeah really where I’ve seen them but
um of course you know a bit of the background at Royal North Devon at Westwood how is that it is
um Council owned land really so the club as far as I’m aware can’t take out those
rushes because um whether it’s the environmental legislation or requiring but another
form of consent from the local Authority they’re they’re not able to move them so um they’re a defining feature really
they’re there to stay there’s no plans to to move any of them around um even where you know the Carries On a
few holes certainly for some of the the sort of older members of the club actually quite quite daunting I think um I think 10 but
11 in particular is actually quite an intimidating tee shot because as you say the because of
the relatively level topography at Raw North Devon the t-box isn’t particularly elevated there and you’re just looking
out at a sea of rushes and you can can’t really see the Fairway you can’t see anything uh and that and the thing is
you’ve played nine holes or so which are relatively open off the tee haven’t you yeah okay there’s holes like seven we
can maybe come back to that but you’ve got holes like but by and large it’s pretty generous off the tee and then you
get on tan and you’re like oh God this feels claustrophobic because all the rushes are in and you’ve got to just
find the right pool and then 11 you sort of like you say you almost Summit over
those rushes and first time I played it it’s like you know that scene in Indiana Jones
um you know the Last Crusade where he has to sort of put his right foot out and he throws the sand down and sees
theirs and the sand stays there and it’s like a leap of faith but there’s a bridge there that’s how I felt hitting
that five iron the first time I played it it’s like I’m fairly sure there’s a fairway over there but I’ve got
absolutely nothing to back that up yeah and it’s like it really is and it’s I
mean I think a house on the hill but there’s actually a few of them so you’re like oh I don’t know if I’ve picked the right one there I was looking at this
chimney now that I’ve looked back at the ball I’m like oh there’s a bit of Doubt kind of creepy the more you play it you
kind of realize that um a shot that’s going between sort of 2 30 and 260 actually gives you about 65
yards of Fairway to play with if you’re trying to poke something down there 200 210 you’re kind of playing into a
40-yard Fairway it’s exactly why I did and then I I ended up dropping clubs every time I played it and then I think
in the I think in the morning on Saturday or whatever and it was like I think it took me I think it took me three blows to get
off the tee which was which was not particularly helpful to a metal score it wasn’t constructive um yeah
um yeah yeah yeah definitely can we talk about the what you see as maybe the magic stretch of the course I’ve got a
little stretcher holes in mind right okay well I’d be interested to know what yeah what your stretcher holds
it’s personally I think the that that front nine really builds and
as you go down the uh I’m gonna say is it the fifth par three
um yeah that’s a pretty cool climb up at that hole it’s um you know elevated
green pin quite often at the front you can leave yourself some smelly putts there and you know and it’s it’s and
it’s falling off all all sides so um that that for me is just it’s just a
great hole as you sum it onto that that fifth green and then you tee off down six I think six is another fantastic
hole where it’s pretty generous off the tee but you want to get yourself pretty far down there because the the second
shot can be a little bit tricky if you’ve got some win to contend with um that’s exactly where I would put the
magic stretch for five six yeah because you’ve got I mean five’s just an all-world par three isn’t it it really
is like the bunkering elevated shot six like you say is so strategic in terms of where you’re
trying to put your T-shirt you can just tap a forearm down there but you’re going to have to lean on a lot of Club to a really tricky little green with all
that manding on the left whereas really you want to push your drive kind of down to the 10th green
almost the further you get down towards that it actually opens up a better shot where you can play up the up the bank
slightly more of a backstop yeah but four with that kind of sleeper face bunkering which is kind of irrelevant
today so four is that you know anyone who’s seen pictures of raw North Devon will have seen you know the huge
dramatic vertical sleeper face bunkering with the arrows on you know and it’s a it’s an iconic feature of the golf
course that I think was the largest bunker in in golf for a period of time
um but now today the hazard’s slightly irrelevant because the the chances are
most players are going to cover a 160 yard carry you’d think um but I can imagine back in the day of
Hutchinson and Taylor when I mean granted those guys were ball Strikers but with Hickory equipment that thing
would have been absolutely fearsome um and I just think that whole little stretch you know fours even when you
Summit those that bunker the mounding and the Rippling on The Fairway and the and the green side
itself is just just class like it’s just there’s so much going for it on that little stretch that
um yeah I was I was a huge fan but then three is good seven as a whole they talk about a lot did you play seven before
the change I did yes the first time went down in 2019 um I don’t know if that was the last
year that seven was was played in in all the configuration it used to be
um a par four where you basically hit over the rushes that are now on the left side of the Fairway you kind of drive
and then hit over those for your second shot um and then that would that would lead you
up kind of by the eight T and then then you kind of carry on the eight as it was the longer part three
um but that’s now changed so I mean Royal North Devon changed quite a bit over the years years and um
it is affected by by Coastal erosion and that receding um yeah the the receding Coastline I
guess if that’s the right expression um so they’ve rebuilt seven that is a pretty new hole I think it’s only a
couple of years old now um into a longer path five they’ve done some new bunkering there which is which
is great um and it’s just a yeah it’s a slightly slightly different hole really
yeah totally different seems to be like the favorite topic of the members to talk about because they seem to love seven with that kind of 90 degree angle
yeah you can still kind of see where the green site would be it’s all blown out by sand and it’s all been weathered away now but you know the par five that steps
in its place is it’s a bit of a brute actually it’s a really tricky tee shot to try and get yourself right down there
um yeah you want to avoid the the debunker give yourself a second shot to the green um
but yeah I think I think it’s a great sort of risk reward hole really again there’s a there’s a lot on the set
second shot on where you you miss it because although it’s quite generous up by the green you can just make an absolute fall of yourself
um like like I did in the second round where you’re sort of chipping off off a kind of slightly crusty lie to a green
that’s above you with the slope sort of running away from you and all of a sudden you kind of walk walk off with a
stick thinking what on Earth I’ve done there as pin high in two 40 feet away from the flag
of it um eight is another hole which I understand is gonna change too um that
is a great part three currently um really understated golf hole isn’t it
but it’s a brilliant path right yeah yeah with some great bunkering that kind of you got to sort of Channel a shot in
between the bunkers or or fly one most of the way there um but it’s about a 200 210 yard shot I
think um but sadly that that green is also going to be affected by the coastal erosion so they’re putting in a new Par
3 which actually went up and had a quick look at it um because that’s starting to bed in now and I understand they’ve kind
of played a couple of they’re playing it played a couple of times this year [Music] um so it’ll be interesting to to get
back there it might be in play might be fully in play next time um you know if we’re able to go down for the
for the Autumn meeting there or there’s there’s still a medal in the cash makeup next year um be interested to see how
that plays then in terms of the clubhouse I understand because I mean we’re going to cut to to Robbie in a bit
who’s going to talk about about the history but um I would say there’s a unique sort of
feeling in the air very different to pretty much any other Golf Club you go the clubhouse it’s almost like it’s just
an Uber relaxed atmosphere isn’t it and I think the club’s so much better you know I’ve sort of read articles you know
kicking around there’s always someone saying you know what we should be doing with dress code what we should be doing
with standards how everything needs to be relaxed I’m not sure that’s quite right but in the case of raw North Devon
it feels like the club is part of the identities the relaxed atmosphere that you get there the fact that you can just
kind of kick around in shorts and flip-flops and enjoy yourself and and the whole thing
has just a very nice social Edge to it I think um yeah definitely you know I am
I think that it’s it’s funny isn’t it because that is a club that is the Cradle of English girl and has probably
more of a right than than most clubs in England to kind of insist on maybe an
adherence to certain Traditions or dress code um and yeah it’s just so so relaxed
there’s no airs and Grace is there it’s thoroughly welcoming um Club I mean yeah you and I we I think
we love long socks foursome’s golf jacket in time more than most in golf um but actually you know going down to to
Royal North Devon and and seeing how relaxed it is it’s such a it’s quite you know refreshing change of pace actually
I think okay isn’t it yeah it’s like it’s nice when everything’s different you know it’s like
you know might even be writing a little piece on the topic of long socks actually but
um the uh for another large media Outlet who interestingly I did play golf with
that though um but yeah I I think it’s the potency of going
somewhere where it has a very distinct personality in the clubhouse and that just makes everything so much better
um you know the fact that you go into the clubhouse and there’s all the history there and you go to the bar and they’ve got like a little Freeport thing
so there’s a there’s a bottle of Port turned upside down which is completely free of charge and you can help yourself but if you have the last if you have the
last measure in the port bottle you have to buy another bottle and it’s just these little Charming things that are quite cool then you order your food
around the side at the little sort of side entrance to the kitchen and the portions come out and again they’re just
frankly ridiculous you know I think I had the most calorific chicken wrap that’s ever been used at one point yeah
which is awesome um so no I I thought it was really cool hugely enjoyable
um golf was mixed like I but I don’t think the fact that I hit the ball reasonably good but scored completely
differently on all the all the three rounds for me it was the biggest luring coming back
um I couldn’t I couldn’t game at the moment though isn’t it you’re just absolutely ripping up man just thinking why can’t I score so I’ve
got I always have these little sound bites I think I could become based on trajectory if my handicap keeps going up
I could be the world’s greatest five handicapped golfer um there we go first punch I don’t feel
like there’s any justice no I’m joking well it’s weird because I scored crap on on the Friday and Saturday morning and
then I played with Dan Davies founder and and and Court architect at rngc who
people will know from our our film and our course Diaries podcast if you haven’t checked that out please do
um and I played with Mike Harris who’s the editor at golf monthly really nice guy so much fun like I you know couldn’t
have enjoyed his company anymore we had just a brilliant 36 whole day um the day before I’d played with Dale
and Hugo again you know fantastic company from start to finish um but after the morning round on the 36
hole I would you know there’s this sort of shably time that they seem to be quite fond of there which is seemingly
you’ve got you’ve got about 50 minutes for lunch and it’s like a race to see how many bottles of shably you can kind
of empty before you go back out in the afternoon which is all well and good but it was Bloody hot and actually I think a
bit of water would have been a bit better um going into the into the afternoon round I think I’ve got myself slightly
dehydrated luckily John Davey from sander um didn’t want to play the cashmere cup had
gone surfing in the morning down at appledore and he’d had a nice time Mosey gone up to the golf club and said I’ll
I’ll jump on the bag which got me really in the mood for it yeah it was so amazing
I was just throwing nauseating caddy chat with him all afternoon you know about three finger six signs and you
know loved that play and all that kind of jazz but John got me round and it’s weird like yeah that just just played
the course slightly differently didn’t hit it any better and scored about seven or eight better you know it was like it was one of those rounds where actually
got a ton out of it um just by making better decisions which you know kind of as we kick this little
discussion off is I think the essence of a great golf course so uh any other closing remarks before we cut over to
Robert no no I think um you know you’ve capped
off what was it was truly excellent few days there and um you know being with so
many kind of like-minded people and close friends in golf this big sort of Jamboree down there in in
um in Westwood it was just a it was a terrific few days and I think you kind of summed up nicely there with the fact
that JD hopped on the bag and um you know able to have a bit of fun he went and got ice cream for us on three
so 13 went over there’s an ice cream van where they’re doing surfing so he went over and gets gets me Mike and Dan
himself a little 99 with a flake that was a lot that was actually delightful and then um and then you TR4 and there’s
a visitor’s Hut on the beach so he goes in there and then goes and scores a Spore three beers as well which was just uh which was just just impeccable
caddying I mean it really was um before I one thing I do want to say before we close is all of those things
that we’ve talked about there there are open competitions so whilst they’re really significant events in the club’s
calendar and they’re on bonus boards what I think is brilliant is that they run them as open competitions so you
know people can just literally go on BRS through the club’s website and get those booked and and I would hugely encourage
people to go and do that the next year I will definitely be going back it sounds like you will be too yeah
um so yeah it was great yeah well without further Ado it’s over to Robert and uh yeah we hope you enjoy
this part it’s uh it’s a really interesting chat um yeah loads of little nuggets in there and uh yeah over to Robert this[Applause] no way [Applause] [Music] [Applause] Rob Robert Robbie what what what’s the
prepare yeah Robbie probably is uh what I’m better known as to be fair teeth on microwave sounds
you’ve got to get it right there like a sort of football commentator all right um yeah Robbie yeah Robbie yeah yeah
that’s probably best what I’m known as yeah because of Robbie Fato really obviously of course footballing
footballing icon yeah I wish I was in but you’re not a liver puddling so you’ve been a member here since you were knee-high to a grasshop I was born in
the house I live in yeah no way yeah but how old are you now I’m 75 it’s a big
big number in it it’s a big number 70 years in the same place yeah no no no
I’ve been away Bright Lights Birmingham London okay yeah traveled around wow
in a manner of fair speaking Yeah Yeah Yeah well thank you so much for joining us on the podcast so obviously we’re
here to talk about RND raw North Devon Westwood ho how do you refer to it
and you call it I do I call it Westward oh you know it was always well and even
well people call it RND you know it’s been shortened to RND so I think most
people know it is RND not West Widow okay but but you like do you like the old I like Westwood Hill yeah that’s how
Darwin and everyone else used to yes they did actually yeah he’s always known as Westwood Hill yeah yeah well it’s my
first visit so I’m we’re recording this on what the 26th of August playing in the silver medal today and then the
cashmere cup now I’m I’m sat here I’m looking at on a huge expanse of relatively flat linksland
um which is kind of How It’s been built to me as you get here and actually the course itself is quite flat I’ve never
actually played here at all right you’re unaware that I’m playing for a piece of golfing history this afternoon you are
indeed you are yeah Club Silver Meadow tell me about that 1864. which would make that what the oldest
medal in English golf oh unlikely I think Blackie probably have got um some older ones
uh because because we’re like the third oldest I think it was uh Blackie then
old Manchester there was a corset Brighton but then it says I think we’re like to
be honest I think we’re the second oldest now after Blackheath in England but the only the oldest that’s still standing on its current site right yeah
yeah I mean we have moved the course a little bit you know when we put the clubhouse up in 1888 before that it was
all out there um just under the ridge really this is Pebble Ridge isn’t it
yeah we should we should do a proper introduction so you’re say roll it roll in the stabbing or
Westwood high as a long-standing member you I get the sense you’ve done all number of things here I’ve heard you
mentioned secretary I’ve heard you obviously you’ve written the beautiful club’s history which we’ve got in front of us 150th year president twice
president twice but it was only because the boy was poorly and I did take it over in 2016. yeah I was a secretary uh
1997 to 2010. uh time to go you recognize yourself by
day really um yeah I was a boy member of The Artisans back in 1958 been playing since 1952.
um yeah I got through uh honors I’m on the honors boards uh here and there so
yeah I’ve done all right well so it’s a special place for you how would you describe
um Westwood High to somebody who’s never been here before how would you
how would you kind of bring it to life because I I’m yet to experience it in its fullest but I think oh yeah well
clearly you have to uh play it to appreciate it or not appreciate it I
think broadly people come here they play well they love it if they play badly
which is easily done I think they hate it you know there is that love eight sort of situation
um yeah but but I love it to me it’s a Ferrari of golf courses you know well
there’s there’s so much history I mean it really is the Cradle of English golf ride I think there needs to be some sort of appreciation for
you know its role in the evolution of the sport really in this country yeah I think because we’re out of the way a
little bit we under hit on our history and people don’t really take him how old
we are you know um but that’s just a personal thing you know that I think we do under
hit on our history hmm do you think the sports may be a bit
quick to run away from some of the great history and traditions that we’ve got almost
not sure really I mean because like you said there’s there’s so much brilliant history I mean I’ve only been in the
clubhouse so you know very briefly to order a very calorific I will add chicken broth extremely calorie good boy
the history on the walls there is unbelievable I mean it’s it’s kind of Museum forward slash Clubhouse isn’t it
really but even with the museum we under hit really you know because a lot of the clubs you know although they look great
you know the reality is they ain’t they ain’t that great to be honest but I’m not demeaning it it is you know it is
pretty historic in there so you you joined the club in 1958 is that right I
did as a boy Remember The Artisans but then uh and that’s a separate club that shares the links here at the time it was
a separate Club yeah Northern Artisans like Artisan is a Victorian term is it
in it where you work with your hands that was the terminology back in the day
um but gradually The Artisans have actually they’ve been they’ve acted as a theater
club for the main club and now I think they’ve wrapped all together I think they’ve been incorporated into the main
club but back when I I was the secret of the artisans in in
1990 right we had 120 members well right so Artisan golf has really fallen off
into the cliff really which is strange really wow I don’t know how close you are to the rest of the sort of artisan
clubs dotted around the UK but there’s quite a few still there but I do sense that maybe there’s not that many people
joining it for whatever reason which is strange because it’s quite a word it’s a really cool Golf Scene in its own right
yeah it’s pretty much cheap golf I think you know you’ve got to do three chores on the golf course and and this and that
but yeah I don’t know I knew I was just died I don’t think he’s an artisan Club in
Devon now whereas there used to be well I’m talking about 30 35 years ago there’s probably five six Artisan clubs
so it really it has fallen off the cliff really yeah I mean I think people aspire to be a member of the real Club if you
like you know because with all the Kudos that brings sure you know but yeah but I mean since 1958 we’re
talking approximately a third of the club’s history have you seen it changed in that time oh
amazing difference really back in the 50s um oh you said it was on its knees almost at once well it was on its knees
losing a lot of money uh very limited membership to clergy and retired
military uh you know guys that had retired from India and expected Curry for every meal
and stuff like that you know so and it was really difficult I mean I was a caddy boy here back in the 50s and uh
you were like persona non grata you know really yeah no Clubhouse no no no you
were the professional professional is not even allowed in the clubhouse and it was very you know tight that you you had
to be one of these sort of people that you know could get in but yeah it always
moved now to be honest I think we’re more of a working men’s club now but I think we’ve just moved with the time
times perhaps better than others yes I appreciate all this color and Thai stuff and in the right place it works but you
know we we’ve relaxed it pretty much whether whether we’ve done down or just uh go with the flow really because we’re
a seaside resort you know people expect to come you know casual and and be okay
with it so uh yeah but that’s the about the identity of it here isn’t it I
think that again knowing a lot of people that have been here a bit in the past have always said you know it’s just a
brilliantly laid-back Club you know if you want to kick your shoes and socks off and wear your flip-flops outside and
enjoy a drink and breathe and see air there’s just there’s no airs and Graces no and I think that’s quite refreshing
you know there’s there’s always a place for a collar and Thai but yeah when you just force it into the situation I don’t
think it makes a place any better well I don’t know really I say yeah I’m not
saying you’d introduced to the mule field but the laid back atmosphere is part of the club yeah it is part of it
yeah but up until a mid mid 80s late 80s you know we were a bit of a stuffy club
actually really yeah and we had to really get a grip of what was happening that people want to be user friendly you
know they want to come in jeans and they want to do this do that and you know we’ve had to slap back on dress code and
stuff like that you know because of where we are and uh well back in the day
I mean early 90s we were losing 40 50 Grand a year really yeah sustainable no
so we had to embrace you know everybody really for for the business model if you
like to work I’m a business model I use that Loosely because we are a members Club but I mean when I started as a sector in
1997 we were into the bank for about 80
000 pounds we had the vat money back from the members some subscriptions and
suddenly we went into the into the black but yeah we had pretty poor time early 90s lost a lot of money 40 50 Grand and
nobody recognized that you know you’ve got to get with the times and actually try to encourage all sorts of people
just to get into golf which uh you know 15 hours in a hustling place you know
we’ve got um you know this weekend alone feels like you know people I know in wider
clubs and outside outside of Devon this is over to destination this weekend this is kind of this weekend that bank
holiday weekend for the cashmere cup and everything like that yeah you know it’s almost like a pilgrimage these golfers are making yeah always a magic week this
week yeah it’s probably not um the bar is not buzzing as it used to
be back in the day because the school Masters Cup there used to be an auction for players you actually bid for players
if you thought they were on form and could go all the way but a lot of country members there and the country
members almost actually run the show but obviously they peed it out and then but
this would stamp in your club’s original Autumn meeting and then it’s just sort of come forward and forward
and always the the person who won the club Silver Meadow would be the captain for the following year
and of course back in the 70s early 1870s two boys won it and they were
chairman of the club so they think no way they changed the rules in the 1870s yeah so it was a Hutchinson Hutchinson
was one and molesworth was another was it Autumn millsworth yeah they were boys
really 16 17 year old and the Elders of the club obviously said oh no we can
have this we kind of there so they stopped pretty fast yeah so they dropped that and created a
president role and the president was the top boy for a year right okay because
traditionally I think um captains became captains because they
were the top boy at golf I think that’s sitting in the side wasn’t it always kind of yeah the role of Club Captain I
think has evolved a lot into what is now almost more of a Statesman Library yeah it definitely is yeah yeah
so what can you tell me about the the sort of founding of of the club initially so just take me back I mean
obviously we should add that you’ve you’ve obviously written the the beautiful Club history here that must I
mean I’m looking at it must have taken a lifetime to pull all that together but the the club was founded in 1864 which
is really with the exception of black Heath and somewhere like say near Manchester
it really is one of the first yeah first actual sort of golf clubs and they went
they went to Scotland and and wanted to get old Tom Morris down to come and lay out a rudimentary course this is my
understanding yeah I think there was a course already here of some to some degree but they thought they wanted to
think uh sort of introduce a degree of uh professional element in into it if
you like because we are double greens back in the day
yeah of course the practical way of playing a lynx course out and back yeah
yeah with minimal effort yes right yeah so yeah 18.
1864 would have been but that was the that was the initial kind of yeah when it was formed yeah the club
was formed in April 1864 yeah so just bring to life maybe how those first sort
of few years I don’t know when you did your research for the book what did those sort of First Years look like in
the club you’ve had a rudimentary course then old Tom’s coming done a visit and
there was but I think it took him two visits am I right he came back a few years later and yeah yeah in fact he
came a couple of times because he used to play he played in a couple of um competitions at the club were hosting
um 1864 um yeah we’re always glossed me away
again I mean to be honest we copied a lot from Blackheath about the rules of
the club and everything like that because Blackheath used to support us pretty well when we had their sort of
open competitions in fact George Clooney won the first gold medal I think so um you know he
traveled all the way from Blackie by Railway obviously back then
um so yeah the course is altered quite a bit since 1864 to be honest and even now
there’s new holes and additions changing out there all the time the seventh and they’ve got a new eight there so yeah
that’s evolved really just with the needs of the game I guess really yeah prior to that one the only real
difference the only real big change was in 1923 when the 14th was altered
slightly um but that you know since then there’s been nothing other than what we’ve done
now at the seven you know new seventh and new eighth so yeah it stood the test of time really
because when filer redesigned the course in 1908 the yardage of the main course
was similar to what the yellow T is now is that right okay so it would have been an absolute brute on a tough day back in
those days oh with Hickory and yeah oh yeah yeah
so Herbert Fowler did some revisions into 1908 then that’s that’s sort of
well I think it was because of the the the Haskell ball yeah yeah sure which was pretty divisive at the time I think
yes it was yeah I think that came in 1901 something like that and obviously
the course was easy with this new ball abandoned Billy was it depends on who
you ask I think yeah I don’t think I would have found it easy still no relatively speak into the to the gutty
percher no but because of that we had the length in the cores in Fowler you I
think it was at Walton Heath and that’s right yeah um he design won’t heat so we came here
and um you know redesign the course a little bit well quite a bit actually you know
seven or eight hours he altered Sammy left um but some of the weaker roles he
strengthened I think that’s that’s fair comment on that one yeah there’s there’s
a couple of characters in the club sort of History around I suppose really around the turn of the century which
you know we’ve done a few podcasts recently with authors who’ve written books about the great English boom you
know this whole concert in 1990s yeah you know that sort of period of
acceleration John Paul Jr wins the wins the the the open as an amateur and all
of that great stuff and there’s this huge acceleration in the game and there’s two figures that really seem to
be at the absolute center of it I guess Robbie and that’s Horace Hutchinson and and J.H Taylor yeah really significant
figures in the in the club’s history right yeah that the two almost had a special relationship amongst themselves
didn’t they yes they did really um yeah J.H Taylor okay he was here in the
beginning he was a member of The Artisans he needed a bit of green keeping work but I I think he moved to
Burnham pretty much when they were in formation line and then he went to uh
obviously Winchester and um forget the other one no he went to
was it wrong with sorry yeah I think Royal mid-serry so we drifted away from us and then he came
back to retire I think just before the second world war and he added how he
said we’re more Lane so I didn’t think uh
perhaps you add the association with the club that we claim you know it’s a
little bit over the top maybe really I think there’s too much maybe baked into it yeah this is his uh home place and
club and and he was a president in 1958 you know oh yeah wow yeah yeah 1958 wow
did you I was introduced to him yeah yeah my father introduced him but to me he was just an old grandfather Yeah I
mean I I was 11 11 year old so yeah he was quite I mean I we did some work
recently around the the Open Championship in 1922 at Rawson
Georges and he made a late run at that and he was quite old then yeah he was right in the Twilight of his career he
was really so 1958 he must have been I’m guessing nudging 75 80.
I think he was 1880 odd wow yeah 80 old yeah but I shook his arm but to me I
said it meant I know he knows he wasn’t a golfing Superstar of the day yeah but
to me he was just in her grandfather at the time you’ve got these old boys around you say no this is an absolute Legend of yesterday yes I’m sure he is
and we’ve all met those people but you don’t realize that no you don’t actually yeah he was yeah no probably the great
trembra of course oh yeah terrific yeah he really was so you think maybe there’s quite a bit of stock obviously he
originated from from Westwood Highland and played his golf here but moved on and came back at later life does that
mean maybe that conversely Horace Hutchinson is almost kind of much more of a critical figure
in the club’s Evolution oh yeah orange Hutchinson yeah I mean I’ve seen ditto marks underneath his names on the honest
people that’s right oh they actually got borders yeah inscribed it yes right yeah well he won everything here virtually
yeah and um yeah he was troubled solo wasn’t he apparently
how’d you mean what trouble didn’t he threw himself out a window or did he commit suicide or something or have I
got that wrong I might have got that you’ve caught me on the back foot because that’s my job to know that I honestly don’t know I thought well he
was pretty unwell come the end I think but he was you know really the
I mean he was a trailblazing golf writer of the day oh he was he started I think it was this badminton libraries or
whatever they were called it became essentially the yeah the dossiers that held all the information on clubs as they evolved he was an evocative writer
he wrote a lot about golf courses and this was really his this was his house
was it yeah well he was one of the ones we said earlier that he won the club uh
silver medal when he was 17 I think and then they said yes I heard about a
meeting there or something while you’re out on the course I think he did actually do it but they
changed the rules shortly after to make sure it didn’t happen again but it’s great to have that connection
with the past isn’t it and I mean were there any other things in researching for your book and and in the process of
putting that together where you thought God that’s incredible bit of History because you must have a passion for a
subject yeah but there were several things which I come across and I think I never knew that how amazing you know
tell me about some of those I know it’s going to be different I mean George millsworth really
uh I know gossip is um claimed to be the
original originator of the club or the founder member but I think molesworth
had so much yeah yeah yeah Isaac gossip he was the vicar up in Northern and he
gets the uh praise for all this um you know being the founder member of the club and making sure but molesworth was
the boy actually that made it tick yeah you Google George melsworth it’s
incredible in what way why like he designed a sort of uh handsome sort of a
handsome car was it I say you you Google him and it is
everywhere I had his hand in all sorts of Industries yeah yeah he wanted to make another bridge over there
over the um River torridge he is really an incredible bloke and he’s got much to
do with the formation of the golf club and the driver of it really yeah I think I think personally he had a lot to do
with it yeah and the the clubhouse where we’re sat now then so my understanding is
it’s moved to its own side before it’s way out into the I’m going to say the
abyss because I don’t really see what’s beyond the golf course other than no it
is that Pebble Ridge out yeah it is all Pebble Ridge out there when you get to
the second green um that is a relative that was used to be the old 18th
beyond that first of all they had a tent when it was a big competition on they
had a tent then uh they put up a 10 Hut that was washed away in about 1880 then
they relocated it back into the Sand Hills but then I think they thought well this
thing going to last so we need to so they bought three fields and that’s what conditions are saying
here right three fields which takes us up to where would you know from the fence up on the fence right from the
fence right up to the road okay so suddenly they had to create trustees because we had property
um yeah in 1888 we built the clubhouse wow which would still put this as an incredibly historic building but it’s
not even your first first Clubhouse no no well after a ten two other clubhouses
yeah yeah
Evergreen did it there’s a tent look at that it’s incredible 1870. yeah the red
jacket’s there you just showed me a picture of some guys putting out there that’ll be the second green which is now the or the 18th green that’s now the
second grade yeah the red jackets that that sort of I think part of that original I think that was a copy of
Blackie do you think yeah I think so yeah and there’s the 10 out
oh wow yeah 1874. and there’s there’s the inside of
it so we’ll try and get some of these pictures from your archives and and put them up on the website
um what can you tell me about the course then Robbie so you know you’ve played here now for
north of 70 years yeah um no South so I’m only 75. 75 so you
told me remembering your five that’s what I was doing yeah yeah it is no I’ll take that one on the chin
the most magical part of the course where’s that point where you still get
the buzz today well to be honest I think we’ve lost the best though is the seventh because it
was a dog leg uh to the left but I get a buzz out of every L because
they’re all different they’re all different you know and depending where the wind is you know like the fifth
which you see in a minute possibly you can hear anything there from a wedge to probably a three iron you know is that
is that much difference because it depends on the Wind clearly but yeah and the the bunkering with the
sleeper face that’s that’s incredibly iconic I want to say that’s the before it’s the fourth yeah I’m glad yeah to
totally butcher that no no um that that’s totally iconic really to
to Royal North Devon that in terms of that look you just you see that and you know exactly where the picture is yeah
that’s that’s an original feature that’s something that’s coming in we’re back in the back in the day it was the biggest
bunker in the world I mean I don’t know because it was a previously a fully exposed sand waste areas yes it was yeah
I mean that would be something to reintroduce maybe like you should just get all the sand down now wow yeah but I
maintenance in it true you know it’s um I can’t I probably can’t find it but
back in the day driving that with with Hickory clubs and oh you couldn’t what
is 150 odd carry I mean it didn’t sound very much
departure boy really win again yeah yes fortunately most times the wind is
behind you know it’s in southwesterly yeah so it would be helping you but even so it’s just if you play with Hickory
you know oh boy you kind of thing nowhere can you and obviously the club’s got raw pattern
I’m curious when um when when did North Devon Golf Club become Royal North Devon
well it was a North Devon and west of England golf club and it only it was as we say formed in 1864 but in 1865 we got
royal patronage oh it really claimed that uh it was the later it was a prince
of Wales then in 1865 and seemingly was a member of the
club as well which I find a little bit strange did you see any evidence of that in the archives in the history record no
all I saw was it was reported in the north Devon Journal which is a local
paper that he’d granted patronage and uh in fact I’ve become a member
so so there’s almost a chance here that you guys are faking it as a royal Club oh
unlikely I’m just joking yeah yeah well who knows
it we had a big fire in 1923. a lot of clubs had fires didn’t they it’s amazing
how many archives must have gone yeah and we lost a lot of stuff then so we didn’t have any proof other than this
letter I think the letters dated 1901 where
when the Prince of Wales succeeded the throne after Queen Victoria
um he granted patronage again oh it’s almost like a repeat thing you know yeah yeah sure so yeah
that’s interesting though isn’t it so we would have been technically one year into the club’s history yeah I’m trying
to think of anywhere because Scotland would be the only place there could have been a royal Club apparently
I was related to uh Queen Victoria’s
surgeon so there might have been a link there but that’s that’s difficult to trace
really yeah and again no it’s hard to track down any kind of empirical evidence right now what was that I’m
curious because that’s that book must have taken it just talk to me about the process of well just getting everything
together before you can even start writing it yeah when I was the secretary I thought well somebody’s going to need
to write a 150th anniversary book in 2014 so I’ll start collecting bits and
bits and you know then pass it on to the boy not realizing that it was going to be me
it was going to be right in their book so it you know I would be prepared for
it then they asked me if I do because I retired in 2010 and I almost started
doing it then I’ll be honest with you you know but uh yeah you enjoy the process yeah
come to divorce a little bit almost divorce because I spent so much time on
it but it is what it isn’t it yes it is yeah and I wanted to do it right with
pictures and we’ve we’ve got uh hundredth anniversary but
in a one two five anniversary but but they don’t do justice really yeah you know I’ve gone a little bit deeper
advice well yeah I mean they’re nice to see that it’s it’s nice to have those though still as yeah of course it is a
continue yeah you’ve got to think that yeah and I pinch some of it from them yeah so you know that’s what’s it
plaguaries but you’ve got to think that maybe like what I mean what do we have you know
it’s gonna be like 42 years time I tell you what my mental arithmetic is shot after two pounds of
Guinness by the way when you when you reach the 200th anniversary it would be 26 degrees
42 years yeah and I might say oh photo got all this wrong yeah
okay no it doesn’t matter but I think you know that that process is quite
important because it’s easily forgotten isn’t it yes it is actually yeah it is and as much as this is an okay
book even then I miss bits I miss bits but then I was constrained really by the
size of the book you know so many pages because otherwise as you said earlier it
becomes unreadable you start to see them where they you know some Club histories are quite thin and some of them are
brilliantly entertaining and some of them are really starchy things that actually it just becomes a almost a
factual recantation I mean mine is pretty much fact but I’ve dressed in it with a few pictures so you know it makes
it hopefully everybody who bought 500 who bought the 500 copies enjoy it
they’re in demand a little bit now because everybody wants it yeah yeah of course I’ve just tried to get my hands
on one and I was told to get stuffed but oh really oh yeah I’m just joking
um you’ve got the benefit of many years wisdom playing these links I’m a first timer here as you know yeah
for any other first time is listening to this podcast what advice would you give them not just about scoring well but I
would welcome that by the way but just in terms of enjoying your time down here because I get the sense this course is a
bit of a grower it takes a few plays to grow on you right yeah I think what you’ve got to do is take it all in you
know get here in plenty of time look at the museum look around the
clubhouse you know look at the locker room you know which is Tyler’s Lockers in there
yeah there’s a few other notables in there and yeah take it all in the golf
course if you’re playing all right it’ll it’ll serve you all right yeah but uh
take it all in that would be my best uh advice to everybody you know spend some
time have a drink before you go
but it is it is what it is you know I say if you play well you love it if you
don’t play so well you think ah now I won’t be back but hopefully everybody does come back and give it a second
chance you know because it from here it looks pretty bland doesn’t it flat
ditches here and there but when you get out there into it you realize that uh
but it’s all going on on the ground isn’t it you know yeah you know I’ve you know I always my listeners to this
podcast will be bored of this and I think we said before we start recording we’re talking about cookie jar but one
of the most exciting feelings in golf is when you get out the car at a at a club that you’ve never been to before because
it’s a completely new sense right sure so you see some look around the clubhouse the car park what’s the First
Tee look like yeah and I mean I’ll I’ll be honest I’ve seen more drama on the First Tee before when I’ve sat there
looking at a course but you know there’s a lot more going on on the ground you know that it’s going to have all these
little tricks and different things exactly yeah you know so many so many
golfers these days are really quite I think guilty of being completely overrued by high dunescapes or oh yeah
you know cavernous bunkers I’m seeing yeah possibly yeah yeah this is raw golf this is sustainable golf right this is
yeah this is golf as it was invented um I mean to be honest we almost had the
oatmeal really in 1909 we lost the vote by I think it was seven
votes to the five uh we lost it the deal but we no the vote took place in 1907 I
think the Elton our bid was for the 1909 open
and now I voted 7-5 against yeah so it was a close run thing yeah yeah I think
uh likes of um and you had like back then you had deal had princes and Georges because they had that whole
spell didn’t they where they were struggling that with canceled opens because of flooding Over the Sea walls
and stuff right yeah yeah which you know but deal deal they always had a reserve Contender and then deal lost it because
I think they were too short in the end think but yeah we made a bid for it I
think the criticism was there’s not enough bed spaces here and it’s it was common land I think
uh ball ball said there’s not enough uh John Ball John Ball said there’s not enough bed spaces in North Devon to
accommodate it and I think because it’s common land we would have struggled to
actually demand the entrance fee or something like that but yeah we did to be fair was proposed by J.H Taylor
who was a chairman of the PGA at the time he did so much for professional golf as
well yeah like like he’s a like sneaky influential guy in golf I know he was a
great player but yeah yes he is almost I mean Stephen Proctor when he was on
our podcast I think talked about the fact that people said to him in later life you
change you totally elevated the way professional golfers reviewed because they were very much seen as working men
second-class citizens at golf yeah they were almost done trustworthy characters yes yeah and then Taylor had kind of
broken that impression played him you know fantastically well but also won everyone over and he then set up the PGA
which really actually saved the the club professionals because club’s probably been trying to buy the rights to
manufacture and sell golf equipment and everything yeah so Taylor was still championing you know raw North Devon
then and saying this should be an artist in golf I mean he supported that pretty much yeah I was in golf I think he was
uh influential in uh setting up the association of golf you know Association
of origin golf clubs yeah in public
now Parks there’s another organization that’s um I can’t remember what it is
now yeah but I mean it is an interesting one just coming back to 1909 though in
that vote I mean you can’t help but think
had the votes gone slightly differently and you’d had the Open Championship the club that we enjoy today would
almost be unrecognizable what would be here today yeah it would have been yeah so we would have been suddenly you know
yeah you’re on the router it’s viewed differently does that mean then the course would go through another
radical transformation in the 20s and 30s because it’s part of that rotor that continues does that then mean the
visiting golfer wouldn’t be able to enjoy better access to the club because all of a sudden it would be filled with
you know maybe a different clientele paying a lot more money to come here and and the whole thing changes oh yeah what
you’ve got here is brilliantly authentic to RND and whatever 111 years ago would have happened if it
did have the open probably would be as well but there must be no getting away from the fact that two places would look totally different oh they would for sure
yeah they would yeah yeah I mean as well we we’ve always had trouble with the
graziers the local graziers who’ve got permission to keep Shield horses on you
know on the public land really and we’ve always been at odds with them or all through the years I mean one
particularly chap he dug up the fifth green and a fitter Peak
um because he just took upon himself yeah he did he dug it up I mean he I think he got fined in there and he did
go to court and getting fine but we’ve always had this sort of contentious issue that we’re
doing wrong out here because we’re cutting the grass and we’re doing this
and doing that whereas the Sheep should be eating the grass and not not golfers mucking it up almost you know so we’ve
had we’ve had a lot of trouble with the crazies down to use but now that’s all gone away because the old grazers have
died and they’re not many sheep out here and it I think that was because of uh foot and mouth you know people I think
moved away from sheep farming so you know sheep out there in our Sports but you could have 1200 sheep and 100
horses at any one time oh and 1200 sheep plus their followers their followers
which is the Lambs so it is I mean I can remember as a boy there were cows
donkeys geese there’s more packages yeah
it was everywhere you know it was absolutely everywhere donkeys I say
donkeys horses sheep we talked about there some of the green keeping certainly some of the
four-legged green Keepers that you guys have I’ve been fortunate to meet a couple of the green screen stuff yeah
North Devon oh Christy obviously are better yeah yeah rngc actually for for
Dan’s par three Tour all right yeah great guy yeah he played him in the semi-final actually playing all right yeah yeah which is surprising
considering the sheer amount of alcohol is drunk um great bloke and Ollie Ollie played on
Tuesday in what was the event on Tuesday
she got 66. I know and apparently missed a short pump
cutting the grass I know yeah going on the greens went out shot 66. yeah incredible same again today apparently
he’s playing he’s gone out done the greens he’s playing this morning and he’s got the final of the Club Championship there he is in fact yeah
um or to be honest the green keyboards have it tough because of the animals yeah and because it’s a common man
you’ve got to work around them yeah you have yeah it’s not yeah it’s not a great easy job but now they do it they do it
very well actually because it causes in good condition despite the Drake we’ve had this bit of rain is out mine spit
Raiders really damn well well Robbie I must say a big thank you for having us down this weekend it’s a real it’s a
real treat I can’t wait to sample in it oh it’s a pleasure to talk to you my son um yeah hopefully you will enjoy well
I’ve absolutely I’m not a good golfer I’m off three but
I don’t think about it I don’t expect to be threatening the scoreboard but not too well it’s unknown in it but I’m sure
you’d be fine yeah I mean it’s almost one of those it’s kind of like the first at St Andrews there’s almost too much too much width off the First Tee that
actually makes it is there any truth in that well yeah but
it’s not so is it I mean it’s wide open really I wonder if we if we had well back when I was secretary we did still
aspire to have the open but to be honest they’d rip it to pieces now yeah so you
know let it go it’s done they’re playing a different game Robin you’ve been a great podcast guest and uh thank you
again okay thank thank you you’re the best